Why can't Sheeky Forums come to a consensus on Zero being better that Stay Night?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Why can't Sheeky Forums come to a consensus on Zero being better that Stay Night?

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https://archive.org/a/search/image/DbovmctdADLMErYqKmURcg/
VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Only a mongrel would consider Stay Night better than Zero.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Only a dumbass would need serious help in choosing which is better. Protip: It's zero

SniperWish
SniperWish

Zero was wayy better

Supergrass
Supergrass

@VisualMaster
Seriously? I thought everyone loves f/sn and gave zero shit for being edgy.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Because Zero is a poor adaptation of a mediocre LN written by a hack that should have stuck to VNs instead of a poor adaptation of a decent VN written by a hack who needs to stop milking Fateshit and get on that remake so I can get more Melty Blood.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

The anime? yes, Zero anime was way better.
The source material though, i would give it to stay/night easily.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@cum2soon
Mediocre? Calling anything with the best Archer Gilgamesh mediocre? Only something a Mongrel would do.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

when did these threads stop becoming bait?

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Gigastrength
We have already established that numerous times

massdebater
massdebater

Zero was a bunch of supposedly adults being a bunch of bakas. Fate/Stay Night had the benefit of the masters being mostly a group of dumbass kids which explained why they were, well, dumbasses, but Kerry and Kotomine are essentially the only ones with a decent strategies to win, and Kotomine was bullshitting his plan up as went along since he never ever considered actually taking victory for himself before Gilgamesh tempted him with his sexy collarbones and un-did that weird hypnotic walking in circles shit they did to him at the Church.

Meanwhile Lord Mellow Yellow set up his own NTR'ing by summoning an legendary wife-stealer; Sakura's creepy rapey uncle was a MAXIMUM omega pathetic piece of shit; Tokiomi sold his own younger daughter to an extremely dubious old worm-wizard and didn't seem to give a single shit; Waiver was just sort of a goofy little beta twink who survived through the sheer luck of the fact nobody cared enough to try to target him.

And then there was the KUURUST Master and Servant.

Techpill
Techpill

@massdebater
KUURU just wanted to have fun

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Gigastrength
Zero left a bad taste in my mouth. So much suffering and autism.

Seriously, Kirei is autistic right? And the only reason Gilgamesh likes him is because he likes fucking around with retards?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@New_Cliche
Literally can't relate to human beings
Shit at social situations
He's somewhere on the spectrum for sure

Supergrass
Supergrass

I liked UBW more, but maybe that's just cause I liked FSN more as a whole.

Like, when I watched Zero for the first time, I came out of it thinking "hey, that was an okay spin off, I enjoyed that", but ultimately I wasn't really like, blown away. When I finished UBW my thoughts were that it was a really solid adaptation of my favorite route from the visual novel, and I left really satisfied after watching that epilogue, especially compared to that terrible DEEN movie.

Emberfire
Emberfire

Nah I prefer Stay Night more. I just like the story more and the development more. Zero felt like that they gave characters no development and killed them off left and right.

HF>UBW>Zero=Fate.

5mileys
5mileys

N T R
T
R

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Gigastrength
Unlimited Blade Works route > Fate/Zero LN > Fate/Zero anime > UBW anime

takes2long
takes2long

Zero is pretty much supplementary material, and it's fine as that. It's a decently interesting story to fill the gaps of the prequel framework that SN already established.

I thought the anime adaptation was a little lacking though. Lancer's death was rushed through in two seconds and lacking its original impact, and re-arranging Berserker's death was just kind of annoying, even if it was for the sake of finishing Saber's story.

farquit
farquit

@Gigastrength
We're too busy enjoying the superior product

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Gigastrength
Nice taste faggot.

FastChef
FastChef

@Gigastrength
We have; it's not

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@FastChef
There was no need to bump this.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Supergrass
UBW, thematically is the worst route, Shirou half-assing his ideal is bullshit.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Fried_Sushi
Shirou is not half-assing his ideal, he knows that reality can get in the way of what he wants. There will be situations where he can't save everyone, but he will do his best, and out of all the Shirous he comes out clean.

I mean you can argue the "purity" of Fate Shirou or whatever, but it's simply untrue. He murders Kirei, and he, without question, allows Ilya to live with him despite her killing a guy.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@BlogWobbles
but he will do his best, and out of all the Shirous he comes out clean.

Because he's half-assing it. Any normal person can do that. He's not a "super-hero" in that sense.

Nasu should have made fate more interesting because thematically it is, but at least he got it right with HF.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Sir_Gallonhead
No, he is clearly the most super heroic. It speaks volumes when he and Rin, without a second thought, agree to make their plan a level more difficult by saving Shinji rather than just killing him. But it was still the right thing. They have no right to play judge and jury.

The simple fact is that Fate Shirou simply never addressed these higher issues, even though he suffered from much greater hypocrisy. He outright killed, he outright harbored a killer.

What Shirou does is absolutely /not/ something a normal person could do, because what he does is see the potential faults and slip ups he has in his future, and doesn't flinch. He knows he may screw up at some points, but ultimately, the path he will walk isn't one that's wrong.

girlDog
girlDog

@GoogleCat
He outright killed, he outright harbored a killer.

massdebater
massdebater

@massdebater
Team Kuuru was the best part of the show right next to Wormhobo.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@farquit
Pedophile pls

RavySnake
RavySnake

@girlDog
For Shirou, especially Fate and UBW Shirou, killing others is a general no-no. UBW Shirou comes to understand that there will be situations where stuff like that can't be avoided, but Fate Shirou generally stays ignorant to the types of philosophizing that went on with his self from the next route.

This is pretty egregious since he does and allows shit that UBW Shirou himself doesn't.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Prisma > HF > Zero > UBW > Fate

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Gigastrength
F/Zero was written terribly, honestly the whole Fate series is mediocre at best. And F/zero was pure fujoshit so you didn't even get cute waifus to argue over.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@RavySnake
"no"

iluvmen
iluvmen

@eGremlin
Shit > Crap > Stool > Feces > Poop

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@eGremlin
Shit opinion.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Gigastrength
Why do you fail so hard at pathetically samefagging, OP?

https://archive.org/a/search/image/DbovmctdADLMErYqKmURcg/

Mods should consider giving you a 30 day ban considering you type like an underaged retard.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Having recently watched Zero and reading up on him I can say Urobuchi is a fucking hack.
Not that Zero's bad or even worse than F/SN, because Nasu is a fucking hack too.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Booteefool
And UBW Shirou goes past petty shit like that and helps the guy. What happens? He becomes a better person.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@BinaryMan
It's likely one or two people trying to stir some shit. This thread was almost dead until someone bumped it.

There are already at least two Fate threads up at this point, there's no real reason to keep this bait one going.

farquit
farquit

@Gigastrength
I like how Zero was able to convey that feeling of cruel awakening to a doomed idealism. The scene where Kiritsugu witnesses his dream of utopia turns into hell on earth is pretty powerful. The Grail is literally communism.

5mileys
5mileys

@GoogleCat
@girlDog
They have no right to play judge and jury.

But that's what a seigi no mikata is all about. UBW is basically just Shirou becoming a better person and it's not as interesting as exploring the extreme ends of ideals.

w8t4u
w8t4u

Who are your favorite animators at ufotable? Mine is Masayuki Kunihiro who worked on #00's Lancer vs Archer.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@AwesomeTucker
You honestly think UBW Shirou wouldn't have killed Shinji to stop the Bloodfort in that situation?
If Souchirou hadn't somehow taken Rider's head off in UBW, the exact same scenario would have played out.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@5mileys
Shirou's whole ideal has always been about saving everyone, not Kiritsugu's approach to killing the few to save the many.

Shirou will try to save everyone, but he realizes sometimes reality isn't so kind as to allow him that.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Sharpcharm
These are all events that take place before the climax of Shirou's character development in UBW.

You post that image thread thinking it actually really means anything, but you're ignoring its placement in the story. It's before Shirou has a concrete answer. It's before he has a solidified ideal.

All Shirous start off at the same place. They are malleable, and they can go in different directions. UBW Shirou is formed through his battle with Archer, where he promises to become a hero. The end result is a situation where he doesn't falter, and he does save Shinji.

Fate Shirou never addresses his problems, and he never addresses his hypocrisy, despite it being pretty damn big.

takes2long
takes2long

@BinaryMan
What makes them hacks?

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@takes2long
Urobuchi is a hack because he's incapable of writing properly
Nasu is a hack because he's incapable of writing consistently

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Soft_member
BLACK HOLE SUN! WONCHA CUM? AND WASH AWAY THE RAIN!

w8t4u
w8t4u

@PackManBrainlure
Urobuchi is a hack because he's incapable of writing properly

Did you read his stuff in Japanese to confirm that he's incapable of writing properly?

Nasu is a hack because he's incapable of writing consistently

What does this even mean?

askme
askme

@Soft_member
By LE Shirou knows all that all too well, but still decided to go on because fuck you.

Evilember
Evilember

@askme
He learns what UBW Shirou learns in the actual story, so he accomplishes his character development off screen.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Evilember
Fate Shirou actually lives his life and gets his life's lessons himself.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Stark_Naked
UBW Shirou does live his own life. That's the whole thing to him. He would follow his path regardless, because he knows it's not wrong. It's the lessons Archer learns. Though by the end UBW Shirou is living a significantly differently life than Archer regardless.

Either way though Fate Shirou's issues had to be addressed in an addendum written years after the original work. It's not particularly interesting when you tell the reader "oh he figures out his shit at some point". It's not wholly unforgivable because he see him figuring out his shit in later routes, but in the end Fate Shirou certainly comes off as the weakest and more ignorant in terms of characterization, which I suppose is fitting, since he's from a route that's all about set up.

farquit
farquit

@Soft_member
You're just dodging the question.
Even after his character development, UBW Shirou still would have just killed Shinji. He gave him a chance, Shinji kept being the shitstain he was and refused to stop it, and Shirou wasn't about to waste any more time giving him another when many more people are dying a little more each second because of him.
Acknowledging that not everyone can be saved was a big part of that character development you keep talking about, you know. He won't simply execute him without mercy as Kiritsugu would, but he's not about to risk dozens of innocent people's lives for the sake of him playing the ideal hero. The situation isn't "petty shit".

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Gigastrength
Because it isn't 2008 anymore and there are less Nitro+ fags around these days.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Gigastrength
Fate stay night is stupid, almost all the masters are from the same one school.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@farquit
Oh I'm not ignoring that. UBW Shirou would certainly kill if he had to. That's not the issue. With Shinji, the situation gave him the option to save him and he took it.

The problem though with Fate Shirou, which is the issue, is that he wants to follow his ideal thoughtfully, which involves saving everyone. The problem is much more than UBW Shirou, he finds himself either willing to kill, outright killing, or soing casual kindness to those who kill as well.

It's a massive elephant in the room that isn't addressed, but it's certainly addressed in UBW, and is a cornerstone of his character development.

This whole conversations came from someone who said UBW Shirou half asses it, but Fate Shirou lives as an out and out ignorant contradiction while still striving to fully follow his ideal.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@cum2soon
showing casual kindness*

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@cum2soon
Dude, Fate Shirou would kill Shinji.

takes2long
takes2long

@BinaryMan
...Yes? That's the point I'm making. He would kill Shinji. He does kill Kirei. He does let Ilya live with him, and Ilya is a killer.

Fate Shirou thought wants to save everyone. He wants to follow his ideal, but he shows outright contradictions to his ideal that are never fully addressed in the route itself. Likely to be saved for UBW and HF, but it still makes him come off all the more shallow for it.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@cum2soon
I can't believe I'm defending Fate Shirou, but you're understating his character depth. He does want to save everyone, but even he knows that's not possible. Kiritsugu told him as much, he just doesn't agree with it — he knows Kiritsugu is correct, but he doesn't think that's right.
Also, I don't know how you're getting the idea that Shirou wanting to be an ideal hero is somehow contradictory to the idea that he shows a helpless little girl mercy and kindness.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Skullbone
Kerry's statements are always brought up regardless of the route, I'm pretty sure it's part of the first three days. He doesn't think it's right that they can't be saved, but he himself commits acts that contradict his own opinion, and this is never particularly addressed in depth. It is later on, but not in Fate, which is the problem.

And the entire Ilya situation in Fate is frankly a joke. She's shown herself to be competent fighter and killer up to this point, but it's all brushed off because she's a cute little girl. It's only until in the later routes that she gets some depth.

Basically what I'm saying is she's a shit shallow character in Fate, but that can be said for most of the cast so I'm not trying to point fingers.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

F/sn = naruto
Zero = Eva

/tgread

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Harmless_Venom
since stay night wears its eva influences on it's shoulder Zero is clearly rebuild

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@RumChicken
What? Ryuki is the biggest influence to F/SN and that shitty fighting game World heroes. If you combine that with Nasu you get F/SN.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@cum2soon
There isn't a contradiction of Shirou's character, there's a contradiction of hopeful ideals against reality. The only difference between Fate Shirou and UBW Shirou on this point is that the latter gives the viewer several monologues about recognizing this.

Ilya herself never fights once in the entire story. Berserker does her dirty work. After he's killed, the point at which Shirou takes her in, she is totally at his mercy and poses no meaningful threat to him.
And yes, in Shirou's opinion being a little girl is the reason why what she does can be brushed off. He feels she's a fundamentally good person, but has a twisted childish amorality through ignorance. It's the same basic concept Kirei goes through talking about newborn Angry Manjew. How can you say what she does is evil if she hasn't been taught to know better?

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Booteefool

only a faggot would say Gilgamesh is better than Garcher.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Gigastrength
Because Sheeky Forums is not a single entity but a group of people who have different opinions

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Evil_kitten
The only difference between Fate Shirou and UBW Shirou on this point is that the latter gives the viewer several monologues about recognizing this.

Bullshit. Shirou's entire character arc in UBW is dealing with his contradiction, his faults, his stumbles, and getting an answer. It doesn't boil down to "several monologues", it's an entire character arc that is essentially absent in Fate. Though to be fair, most character arcs besides Saber's are absent in Fate.

It's egregious though because Fate Shirou does shit that UBW Shirou, a more learned Shirou, doesn't. He's the one who knows he can't save everyone, but Fate Shirou, who still wants to aim for that, commits murder.

Ilya's actions aren't what's in question here, it's Shirou's reaction to them, namely the fact that she killed Sakura's brother without hardly a mention of it. Archer too, but that's less of a problem since he's a servant and inherently part of the game at hand.

There's no real, "Am I bad for allowing this little girl to live in my house? She killed someone who used to be my friend." Lack of introspection or anything.

whereismyname
whereismyname

F/SN as a whole > F/Z >= HF > Fate > UBW > shit > Prisma

Fake Ilyafags and Rinfags need not reply

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@eGremlin
genderbent kuro isn't GARcher
dropped

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Gigastrength
Yeah, i agree that zero is better, the grail war felt like a real war, and if you watch it first without spoilers it's quite hard to figure who will win, because almost everyone has good motivations.
The stay night route was mediocre and predictable anche characters were all quite stereotypated overall the worst route.
Ubw was cool just for the Emiya vs EMIYA thing.
Heaven's feel on the contrary was the best route, maybe even better than zero

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Gigastrength
Rin is smarter as a kid than as a teenager.

Bidwell
Bidwell

HF > UBW > Z > Fate

Prisma is a neat spin off.

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